The demise of PVP

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bowloftoast
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The demise of PVP

Postby bowloftoast » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:32 pm

Noticing a sudden rash of 'stealth' teams in PVP this round. Teams that are convertible from buff to debuff with little or no change in their line-up, but rather a change in abilities behind the scenes. The PVP game is fast becoming about guessing whether the opponent's team is 'this' or 'that', in any given battle.

Fielding teams of this nature has always been part of the strategy in Arena, particularly towards the end of the season, but now that so many are adopting these convertible teams, PVP is very quickly moving away from a knowledge-based strategy game (with a goal of steadily improving one's npcs), to a basic, boring coin-toss, with a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly. This whole thing is losing its luster very quickly.

I think we are seeing the beginning of the end for Arena.

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akerson
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby akerson » Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:36 pm

bowloftoast wrote:I think we are seeing the beginning of the end for Arena.


Wait arena wasn't DoA? What did I miss?
"I believe the forum ban was deserved, as he has been out of line, and warned.

I believe a permanent game ban was out of line."

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bowloftoast
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby bowloftoast » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:14 pm

It was pretty good for a while there. You had to embrace it :)

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Retep
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Retep » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:44 pm

I actually do (still) enjoy arena (I know that might be an unpopular opinion) because it isn't just whoever has more power wins and it isn't just an RNG fest, you can tailor your team to beat your opponent and there is a learning curve to that process. And now that I've gone through that learning process (though I'd be naive to think I have arena 100% figured out), I can basically win every fight on offense, which is also kind of boring. People playing this mind game type style keeps arena a bit more interesting for me, and there are still some tells about which kind of team your opponent is running (which leaves even more to be learned). I also like to screenshot matches I lose so I can go back later and figure out what didn't work and also keep track of those players that like to make those "stealth" teams. Besides, a drawback, and part of the reason why they are considered stealth teams, is that their heroes will not being using optimal combinations of abilities, this means you can make a team that does decently against either style and still win (provided their heroes aren't more than about 2x your heroes' power).

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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Feone » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:49 pm

These can be beaten reliably, careful team tweaking etc. playing like that takes an eternity though. Tweaking your team with every fight, tracking which opponents are fond of tricky setups etc.

I used to always end up pretty high in the rankings, with careful tweaking a few 40k heroes can beat even most 120k teams. Except it took an hour or more to do my daily pvp plays. But oh well, no matter how well I do in PVP there's little effect on the ranking. The final position is decided almost exclusively by a spam of last minute plays.

Since I can't be around during that time due to timezones I'll just get dropped way down right before the end. If there's no point in playing it (even a little bit) competetively then I may as well just keep my ranking low and get a spam of easy single click wins for 4-7 jewels in a few minutes. Even though my heroes have gotten stronger this just hasn't changed.

My town is already done with crownjewel upgrades too though...

inVoh
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby inVoh » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:36 am

All I do is click through for my daily bag. What... people actually try to strategize this crappy pvp implementation?

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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby VeNoM0619 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:01 am

I thought PvP was always dead, and not worth the time.

I'm actually confused by how someone thinks there is genuine strategy, when abilities are 30-60% procs (an evenly matched power team, is determined by RNG). You could say there's "counters" to teams... but the RNG still throws that off. Plus the effort spent on SLOWLY equipping several heroes makes it even more painful.

I figured the proof that it was worthless, was in the implementation. 10 fights required per day for a bag (but they give you like 20 attempts), the fact there is a fast forward/skip, already tells you it isn't worth watching.

I thought it was garbage since it's release, and felt there was never much strategy/skill to it.

Perhaps decreasing the fight count for bags, and removing the "1v1" whoever has more power insta-wins. Then implementing a round by round where you activate abilities would be far more engaging..feel free to add to that idea though, but for now its just: "start fight -> skip -> repeat until 10 wins"

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Retep
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Retep » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:24 am

VeNoM0619 wrote:I'm actually confused by how someone thinks there is genuine strategy, when abilities are 30-60% procs (an evenly matched power team, is determined by RNG). You could say there's "counters" to teams... but the RNG still throws that off.


The fact that I can arrange my team of 40k power heroes to beat teams of 100-120k power heroes 98 to 100 times out of 100 kind of proves there are counters and they work. Sure RNG can play a part, but a lot of good abilities are 90-100% proc rate or a smaller chance but has that chance to proc multiple times per "turn" (For example, I'm pretty sure holy shield, purify and repel magic all have a chance to activate PER HERO buffed or debuffed, which often means like 3+ chances at 30-60% since many buffs or debuffs work on 3 heroes per activation).

I do agree it's probably not worth the effort though for an extra bag every other day and a few gems at the end of the season.

inVoh
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby inVoh » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:14 am

Retep wrote:
VeNoM0619 wrote:I'm actually confused by how someone thinks there is genuine strategy, when abilities are 30-60% procs (an evenly matched power team, is determined by RNG). You could say there's "counters" to teams... but the RNG still throws that off.


The fact that I can arrange my team of 40k power heroes to beat teams of 100-120k power heroes 98 to 100 times out of 100 kind of proves there are counters and they work. Sure RNG can play a part, but a lot of good abilities are 90-100% proc rate or a smaller chance but has that chance to proc multiple times per "turn" (For example, I'm pretty sure holy shield, purify and repel magic all have a chance to activate PER HERO buffed or debuffed, which often means like 3+ chances at 30-60% since many buffs or debuffs work on 3 heroes per activation).

I do agree it's probably not worth the effort though for an extra bag every other day and a few gems at the end of the season.


Takes like an hour to write a guide on which teams you should field vs what and... wow you are good at arena! The whole fact that 9/10 times you know exactly the comp your opponent is running makes the entire minigame bad.

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Retep
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Re: The demise of PVP

Postby Retep » Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:40 am

inVoh wrote:Takes like an hour to write a guide on which teams you should field vs what and... wow you are good at arena! The whole fact that 9/10 times you know exactly the comp your opponent is running makes the entire minigame bad.


I find this funny considering this thread was started based on the complaint that you can no longer figure out what comp your opponent is running; but in my experience that is exactly the evolution of competitive games. First people spend a while figuring out what works well and what doesn't until they think they've come up with what works "best". Then that thing that works "best" starts becoming widely adopted, to the point where everyone is basically doing the same few things that become very predictable. Then people start challenging those assumptions and use them against you, until that becomes common enough that the people who figured out what was "best" have to rethink their assumptions and figure out a new strategy, or at least play more cautiously by keeping in the back of their mind the fact that the opponent might not be doing what it looks like they are doing.

For example, in Starcraft (a competitive real-time strategy game) in one of the match ups (protoss vs. zerg) it was assumed for a while you basically couldn't get dark templars (a cloaked unit) as protoss since zerg naturally has a ton of ability to detect cloaked units, but one day a pro player destroyed another pro player in a major tournament using dark templars and the match up completely changed after that.

Another (probably better) example is Hearthstone (and I hear Magic the Gathering is similar), where back when I played you could basically figure out 95%+ cards in your opponents' deck based on just seeing the first few as people had "figured out what worked best". Eventually people started developing counters to these common decks, which became more and more common until the people running the original decks caught on to that and modified their decks to look like the original deck based on a few cards but actually held cards that countered the counter deck people were increasingly running.


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