Chests are absolute cancer.

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Ronin
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Mon May 15, 2017 1:38 pm

Shiroe wrote:
Ronin wrote:
Imasock wrote:Basically, it sounds like implementing a minimum number of fragments per chest is a readily agreed upon option.

Maybe include more than one item per chest? Maybe do a few fragments (variable), some artifacts, an item, and the occasional blueprint? Including fragments with every chest at least allows for a player to feel as if a "pity timer" is in play at all times, and a player will save up enough fragments to get a BP regardless of whether or not they actually get a BP from the chest itself, but that the chests are still providing a blueprint in some form.


Sounds great! If chests drop bp frags, I can get frags for 4-10 gems each (wood and leather chests) therefore reducing my expected cost of acquiring blueprints by like 80%.

/s (obviously)

Could be fixable by no longer dropping fragments as soon as you have all of that chest's blueprints.
(players who haven't finished wooden/leather yet would probably make sure they don't use any fragments on those at the inn and take more keys out of the market to farm fragments from those chests though.)


That limits the exloitable positive return (5-10 gems on a key that returns a frag worth 40-60 gems), but doesn't remove it, given open chances you're looking at an effective net gem gain of approximately 12,000 (using 300 chests x gain/chest of 40 gems). Outside of the net gain scenario, giving a guaranteed return of 40-60+ gems worth of frags per open drastically alters the balance as it relates to chests. Iron chests are now effectively 50% cheaper to open, gold chests 25%, and that's if even a single fragment were offered.

If people really like the idea of a soft pity timer to avoid 40-fail streaks (and thus simililarly avoiding back-to-back bps), you can do so without impacting the balance by making chest rolls a weighted pseudo-random distribution rather than a random distribution. If cloudcade was feeling generous, they could even add in a counter showing how many of a chest-tier you've opened since your last bp so you wouldn't need to track it manually.

Imasock
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Imasock » Mon May 15, 2017 7:48 pm

Fragments are worth 0 gems, they cannot be sold.

Blueprints are also, technically, worth 0 gems as well, as they cannot be sold.

You assign gem worth by the blueprint you get out, if any. At my current level, if I got one fragment from my gold chests, that's about 250 gems for 1 chest, and it takes 42 fragments for a blueprint. So basically 1 chest = 250 gems, and 1 frag / chest * 1 BP / 42 frags * 250 gems / BP = 6 gems per frag.

250 gems to open a chest and I get 6 gems worth of fragments out. That's if I could guarantee a BP every time I opened a chest, which is never the case.
"That limits the exloitable positive return (5-10 gems on a key that returns a frag worth 40-60 gems)"

That's _hardly_ anywhere near exploitable and really isn't a big deal. If they gave me like 5 fragments per chest, then yeah, that's a bit overkill, yet even then, at ranges in magic chests (70+ frags per BP), that's still more than a dozen chests to guarantee a single BP, 6000 gems.
How exactly is 6000 gems per blueprint exploitable and game-breaking?

techwolf
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby techwolf » Mon May 15, 2017 9:09 pm

I despise getting 8 Dark Energy from what is basically a $5 USD chest. Make it BP fragments instead. The quantity should be relative to the amount of gems spent to open it. At least then you're guaranteed to make progress towards obtaining a new blueprint. Flawless (at higher levels) are just barely tolerable.

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Shiroe
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Shiroe » Tue May 16, 2017 2:13 am

Imasock wrote:Fragments are worth 0 gems, they cannot be sold.

Blueprints are also, technically, worth 0 gems as well, as they cannot be sold.

You assign gem worth by the blueprint you get out, if any. At my current level, if I got one fragment from my gold chests, that's about 250 gems for 1 chest, and it takes 42 fragments for a blueprint. So basically 1 chest = 250 gems, and 1 frag / chest * 1 BP / 42 frags * 250 gems / BP = 6 gems per frag.

250 gems to open a chest and I get 6 gems worth of fragments out. That's if I could guarantee a BP every time I opened a chest, which is never the case.
"That limits the exloitable positive return (5-10 gems on a key that returns a frag worth 40-60 gems)"

That's _hardly_ anywhere near exploitable and really isn't a big deal. If they gave me like 5 fragments per chest, then yeah, that's a bit overkill, yet even then, at ranges in magic chests (70+ frags per BP), that's still more than a dozen chests to guarantee a single BP, 6000 gems.
How exactly is 6000 gems per blueprint exploitable and game-breaking?

Ronin meant wooden/leather keys. Say right now you can buy a wooden key for 6 gems and that would give a fragment. Then those 42 fragments for a golden blueprint would cost you 6 * 42 = 252 gems. Contrast that with probably opening 10+ golden chests which would average out to maybe that much progress in blueprints and fragments (in your "any type of chest gives 1 fragment" example), but cost nearly 2500 gems.

So result of that would likely be that wooden keys would go up to something like 23-24 gems, chests openings other than wooden and primal (for the 2 artifacts) would be pretty useless and newbies would pay many more gems to get through their wooden blueprints, since wooden keys are no longer cheap.
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

inVoh
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby inVoh » Tue May 16, 2017 7:28 pm

Imasock wrote:Fragments are worth 0 gems, they cannot be sold.

Blueprints are also, technically, worth 0 gems as well, as they cannot be sold.


Just because something cannot be sold does not mean they don't have a value. Say I spend 5k gems per BP and my next BP from fragments is 81 gems. BP fragments are worth 61 gems in this scenario. Now that I know what they are worth, I can determine if collecting them is something I should focus on.

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Shiroe
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Shiroe » Wed May 17, 2017 2:25 am

How about this for chest openings:
- blueprint/blueprint progress pull: no fragments
- artifacts pull: add 1 fragment per 100 gems chest open cost (round down)
- item pull: no fragments (didn't (most) item pulls have their minimum quality bumped up by 1 recently?)

so fragment numbers if artifacts are pulled:
wooden: 0, leather: 0, iron: 1, golden: 2, magic: 5, dwarvish: 5, primal: 7
so for iron that would be 18-37 artifact pulls to fragment together a blueprint
for golden that would be 19.5-33.5 artifact pulls to fragment together a blueprint
for magic that would be 14-18.4 artifact pulls to fragment together a blueprint
for dwarvish that would be 20-23.2 artifact pulls to fragment together a blueprint
for primal that would be 17.3-21.7 artifact pulls to fragment together a blueprint

(same chest and blueprint from fragments range used in the calculations above)
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

inVoh
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby inVoh » Wed May 17, 2017 4:13 am

Chests are fine as they are. If they want to make things better just make bp fragments more frequent on gold wheel or more frequent at the inn. Yeah it sucks you sometimes get a reward of 50m value when you open a chest worth 3g... but hey... thems the breaks. It's gambling for a reason.

wigi
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby wigi » Wed May 17, 2017 5:28 am

change artifacts for shopkeeper cosmetics?

Ronin
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Wed May 17, 2017 9:54 am

Imasock wrote:You assign gem worth by the blueprint you get out, if any. At my current level, if I got one fragment from my gold chests, that's about 250 gems for 1 chest, and it takes 42 fragments for a blueprint. So basically 1 chest = 250 gems, and 1 frag / chest * 1 BP / 42 frags * 250 gems / BP = 6 gems per frag.


That math oddly assumes that a bp costs only 250 gems, which requires an assumption that bp rate from chests is 100%. Using the approximate 10% bp rate from testing (you can gind on forum), correcting your math results in a valuation of 60 gems frag.

internetz
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby internetz » Thu May 18, 2017 1:07 am

The whole "frags from chests" exploit problem could be easily solved by making the frags that drop from chests only able to unlock that kind of bp. ex: golden chests drop golden bp frags, which can only be used towards unlocking golden bps. they could be combined with the normal blue bp frags from other activities to open their type of bp, but you would be unable to use a golden frag to unlock a magic, leather, iron, wood, primal, or dwarvish chest bp. Combining this with the "don't offer bp frags after all bps for that chest type have been unlocked" idea would of course be necessary.


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