Chests are absolute cancer.

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aks47u
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby aks47u » Thu May 18, 2017 9:32 am

internetz wrote:The whole "frags from chests" exploit problem could be easily solved by making the frags that drop from chests only able to unlock that kind of bp. ex: golden chests drop golden bp frags, which can only be used towards unlocking golden bps. they could be combined with the normal blue bp frags from other activities to open their type of bp, but you would be unable to use a golden frag to unlock a magic, leather, iron, wood, primal, or dwarvish chest bp. Combining this with the "don't offer bp frags after all bps for that chest type have been unlocked" idea would of course be necessary.

Example
Let's say that I have 1 golden BP left to get, it's costs 40 bp-frags, I have 39 golden frags.
I pull the BP on my next opening.
What happens to those 39 golden frags now?

internetz
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby internetz » Thu May 18, 2017 11:29 am

they go unused. you could always have used some of your blue frags from daily quest or wheel to make up the remainder, but if you've gotten all the bps from the gold chest any remaining gold bp frags are no longer usable. Similar to the way that once your city has gotten all the crown jewel upgrades, they are unusable, or once you get all the chest bps, normal bp frags will be unusable.

DeityGod
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby DeityGod » Thu May 18, 2017 12:30 pm

Different types of bp (common, gold etc) will make game more complicated. It will NOT make it better.

If you really want to make game better, then different types of chests instead of artifacts should give you different quantity of bp fragments! Let's say wooden chest give you 1-2 fragment at a time. Leather chest gives 2-3 fragment, iron 3-5 etc. Each type chest bps cost more fragments and better keys cost more gems. Therefore more costly chest naturally should give you more fragments. Proportion should be equal to the chest opening cost.

You could say wooden key cost low on market. That will result its cost will rise up. That's all. More so it will bring more activity to the market which also are good thing.

This will make things much better with just a little tweak.

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bloop
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby bloop » Thu May 18, 2017 1:25 pm

what is it with degenerates and their love for participation trophies?
Image

Ronin
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Thu May 18, 2017 1:54 pm

internetz wrote:The whole "frags from chests" exploit problem could be easily solved by making the frags that drop from chests only able to unlock that kind of bp. ex: golden chests drop golden bp frags, which can only be used towards unlocking golden bps. they could be combined with the normal blue bp frags from other activities to open their type of bp, but you would be unable to use a golden frag to unlock a magic, leather, iron, wood, primal, or dwarvish chest bp. Combining this with the "don't offer bp frags after all bps for that chest type have been unlocked" idea would of course be necessary.


Workable I guess, though you'd still need to increase chest opening price or decrease chest bp chance if you didn't want to affect current balance.

Although, affecting the current balance seems to be what most people are advocating, which isn't surprising given that OP's first and second posts gripe about that primarily:
Imasock wrote:Can't there be something actually worthwhile contained in a chest? 10k gems for a single blueprint when there's 50+ in ONE type of chest is bonkers. And you wonder why people are leaving this game...

Imasock wrote:I understand that blueprints are not supposed to flow out from chests every roll, but even if you went with the generous estimate of one blueprint in every 3 chests, that's 54x 1500 = 81,000 gems ($447 at bulk cost). That's _just_ to get the 54 blueprints for magic chests.


If the goal is just to reduce the expected cost to acquire bps, just advocate for decreasing the chest opening cost rather than for implementing convoluted fragment-based models. If, on the other hand, we want to have an honest discussion about whether the randomness of bps is unfair enough that the model should be changed, we should probably look at the actual distribution of chests to unlock a given tier.

Below are the calculated mean chest opens required and the standard deviation of chest opens using a negative binomial model. (For these purposes the slightly positive skew isn't being considered, because ignoring it overestimates the magnitude of the negative outcome for the unluckiest players).

Golds BPs (10% bp chance):
Mean - 360
Std. Dev. - 56.9

Magic BPs (25% bp chance):
Mean - 232
Std. Dev. - 26.4

Applying the std. deviation to the right-tail of the distribution to look at the impact on "unlucky" players:

Gold
Only 25% of players will have to open more than 398 chests (398 chests is 11% more than average);
Only 10% of players will have to open more than 433 chests (433 chests is 20% more than average);
Only 5% of players will have to open more than 453 chests (453 chests is 26% more than average);
Only 2.5% of players will have to open more than 472 chests (472 chests is 31% more than average); and
Only 1% of players will have to open more than 493 chests (493 chests is 37% more than average).

Magic
Only 25% of players will have to open more than 250 chests (250 chests is 8% more than average);
Only 10% of players will have to open more than 266 chests (266 chests is 15% more than average);
Only 5% of players will have to open more than 275 chests (275 chests is 19% more than average);
Only 2.5% of players will have to open more than 284 chests (284 chests is 22% more than average); and
Only 1% of players will have to open more than 293 chests (293 chests is 26% more than average).

Note that I'm only measuring chests and not assigning an expected cost, as I haven't attempted (and don't have the data to attempt to) model in possible epic/leg/mythic drops that impact the effective cost of unlocking the tier.

Personally, I see nothing about these distriubtions that warrant the amount of rage it seems to induce. Based on some preliminary modeling, mastery procs have a far wider distribution between "winners" and "losers".

VeNoM0619
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby VeNoM0619 » Thu May 18, 2017 7:10 pm

Ronin wrote:Personally, I see nothing about these distriubtions that warrant the amount of rage it seems to induce. Based on some preliminary modeling, mastery procs have a far wider distribution between "winners" and "losers".

Most of the hate comes from time investment. Just like the 5 legendaries taking several days for a 63% chance at something (or wasting several days getting nothing from it)

People spend a whole day getting a key, and before someone remarks with "I can get x keys in a day". You have to look at average player play time (no... average players dont play more than a few hours a day, they have school/jobs/kids to take care of). We are also talking about mid-high tier keys as well, like gold+.

People spend an entire day for - nothing. Crafting mastery procs don't even get a complaint, because you have 9 chances every hour. It's just that simple, when you spend an entire day to try and make progress towards a goal, and there is no progress, it creates a "why try" mentality and people quit.

People who fail to understand the above, either don't have empathy or probably spend a lot of time playing this game, and think 8 hours a day is acceptable behavior. They aren't asking for handouts, they are asking for VISIBLE progress.

Failing to see why people rage, doesn't make it NOT a problem if many people feel this way. Game design 101.

internetz
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby internetz » Thu May 18, 2017 10:25 pm

probably because by your own numbers, 25% of players have to spend nearly 100k gems just to get all the gold bps. (And you can't assume that they will get any sort of legend/myth drops that they will sell for gems and not just use, there is no real gem price to most of these bps unless you are willing to leave them in slots for weeks, and a single item wasting an entire slot for that long will probably lose you gems in the long run.)
Remember that because gems are a "premium currency", we have a way to show exactly how much 100k gems are worth in real world currency: $550.
Does this seem like a reasonable amount of money to spend to finish a middle stage item in an online game?

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Shiroe
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Shiroe » Fri May 19, 2017 6:39 am

internetz wrote:Remember that because gems are a "premium currency", we have a way to show exactly how much 100k gems are worth in real world currency: $550.

s/are worth/how much a big whale would spend to avoid the time to get those/

If a big whale spends, wild guess, $2000-4000 farming all chest blueprints, then quits within 2 months of starting play because they are bored because of "finishing the game", Cloudcade probably doesn't mind, but for the rest of us they probably prefer us getting through the chests slowly and buy some packages as we play for many months/years.
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

Ronin
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Fri May 19, 2017 10:24 am

VeNoM0619 wrote:
Ronin wrote:Personally, I see nothing about these distriubtions that warrant the amount of rage it seems to induce. Based on some preliminary modeling, mastery procs have a far wider distribution between "winners" and "losers".


People who fail to understand the above, either don't have empathy or probably spend a lot of time playing this game, and think 8 hours a day is acceptable behavior. They aren't asking for handouts, they are asking for VISIBLE progress


No they aren't. They're explictly asking for the overall cost of unlocking a chest tier to be cheaper. See anything written by the OP, numerous intevening posts, or the post directly following you.

If you remove bps from the chest loot pool and just directly added a ticker such that a bp is unlocked every 10 opens, these kids would still rage because they think that the expected 80-100k gems cost is obscene, especially when they get it into their head to convert that gem price to the $USD buy price of gems and pretend that such a metric is at all relevant.

If you'd like to be the first of the "VISIBLE progress please" people to request such progress in a way that doesn't reduce the overall cost of unlocking a tier, I'd much welcome that.

P.S. Please you keep your passive agressive insults to yourself. I highly lament the general public's mathematical illiteracy and that's why I presented and explained the distribution data instead of just responding like bloop.

Feone
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Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Feone » Fri May 19, 2017 11:03 am

Reducing difficulty is not by definition a bad thing, no matter how often the "hurr durr handouts begging lazy millenials get off my lawn" refrain is repeated.

Gems have gotten significantly more difficult to get, which is easy to overlook when you were one of the earlier players who actually got a chance to get large amounts of gems easily.

Some new content/mechanic where late mid/endgame players can farm gems, especially if it involved heroes with a use for high end gear, would be a good thing imo. Let us actually finish with the chests and slots so we can use all those gems to fuse the now unlocked recipes, maybe even buy some decorations. Keep people engaged with the game, give them a good reason to stick around and actually buy those "seasonal" packs, maybe spend some money on extra gems for the impatient players.


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