Chests are absolute cancer.

Discuss anything related to Shop Heroes gameplay.
Ronin
"Great" Mastery Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Fri May 19, 2017 11:43 am

Feone wrote:Reducing difficulty is not by definition a bad thing, no matter how often the "hurr durr handouts begging lazy millenials get off my lawn" refrain is repeated.

Gems have gotten significantly more difficult to get, which is easy to overlook when you were one of the earlier players who actually got a chance to get large amounts of gems easily.

Some new content/mechanic where late mid/endgame players can farm gems, especially if it involved heroes with a use for high end gear, would be a good thing imo. Let us actually finish with the chests and slots so we can use all those gems to fuse the now unlocked recipes, maybe even buy some decorations. Keep people engaged with the game, give them a good reason to stick around and actually buy those "seasonal" packs, maybe spend some money on extra gems for the impatient players.


This is quite fair. When I started playing, I used a 350k gold/gem ratio to determine whether to price something in gems or gold and gold keys could be bought for about 180 gems. Now it's somewhere closer to 4M/gem and gold keys are 215ish gems. With those numbers, it's almost 14 times more expensive to unlock gold chests than it was a bit over a year ago.

Without additional end-game content, bps are mostly just fancy medals and so it makes some sense to make them difficult to acquire. If we had additional end-game content, where they were important to progress towards that content, making them cheaper/easier to acquire would be beneficial.

User avatar
Shiroe
"Legendary" Mastery Member
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:05 am
Location: the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Shiroe » Fri May 19, 2017 1:56 pm

Ronin wrote:This is quite fair. When I started playing, I used a 350k gold/gem ratio to determine whether to price something in gems or gold and gold keys could be bought for about 180 gems. Now it's somewhere closer to 4M/gem and gold keys are 215ish gems. With those numbers, it's almost 14 times more expensive to unlock gold chests than it was a bit over a year ago.

Hmm?, my memory must be hazy then, since I thought all key had their gem price staying at or above gem chest open price until the point they hit gold cap.
(gems:gold was about 1:30-35K when I started, so for that 100 fold inflation I guess the amount of gold in the game grew 100 times as fast as the amount of gems grew. Since many, many more people reached the point where the shop upgrades no longer eat their gold, and a whole bunch of gold producers were added to complement Goddess' Tear, that's pretty logical. Hard to compare the situations though: completing wooden-magic with no raids, no bulk orders, no fragments(, no bags) and likely gold production from a below 40 blueprint from 1 of the 3 packages, a random luck magic/golden blueprint or else things like Invincibility Potion/paradise Hound vs completing wooden-primal now with all the extra gem/gold/fragment options...)
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

internetz
"Great" Mastery Member
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 1:22 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby internetz » Fri May 19, 2017 5:22 pm

if you're flipping gold to gems via magic chests, it currently costs 4.416M gold per gem. so to unlock all your gold chests, it would cost 441.6 G
I don't know about you, but it took me nearly a year to make that amount of gold. Once again - does this seem like a reasonable amount of time for this achievement? When cloudcade locked down the keyflip mechanic, it increased the difficulty of opening chests by a factor of 10.
Buying keys with gold is essentially impossible, so you are stuck flipping gold for gems at a severe loss. Thus the chests need a sizable decrease in cost or they need a higher chance of dropping something useful when opened, in order to motivate players to actually want to keep opening them. Without opening chests and receiving new blueprints, the only sense of achievement and progression from the game comes from watching your networth slowly increase, and if I wanted to watch a number increase, I'd be "playing" an idle game.

Kim!
"Good" Mastery Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Kim! » Fri May 19, 2017 5:40 pm

if you're flipping gold to gems via magic chests, it currently costs 4.416M gold per gem. so to unlock all your gold chests, it would cost 441.6 G

There are other ways to earn gems... I've never been a fan of key flipping, and you've also skipped over free gems/keys from raids, gems from quests/bulks, etc. I dunno, it just seems a little narrow to assume that everyone plans to get blueprints purely by flipping gold to gems.

Also, honest (and possibly dumb) question, apart from times like steam release when we had an influx of newbies, the number of gems coming into the economy should remain relatively constant. Shouldn't that means it's roughly the same amount of work to get gems despite the gold/gem ratio and piles of new moneymaker bps?

internetz
"Great" Mastery Member
Posts: 158
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 1:22 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby internetz » Fri May 19, 2017 5:57 pm

Kim, you used to be able to request keys for gold at high levels, and they would fill within a month at the most, from the newbies flipping their keys/gems for gold. Now it's unlikely that you'll get keys for gold, becasue of the keyflip restrictions on newer players. this means that in order to open chests, you essentially are forced to either use/buy gems to open chests that way or snipe the occasional key that gets offered for gold. This is significantly "harder" than just requesting keys for max gold and waiting a month.

VeNoM0619
"Good" Mastery Member
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:07 am

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby VeNoM0619 » Fri May 19, 2017 6:36 pm

Ronin wrote:P.S. Please you keep your passive agressive insults to yourself. I highly lament the general public's mathematical illiteracy and that's why I presented and explained the distribution data instead of just responding like bloop.

My apologies for the passive aggressive, but this topic has gone on for far too long, and has made no progress. It has been 8 full pages of the same discussion:
"Its hard to make keys to open chests, I hate them" -> "Its easy, quit crying lazy noobs"

One side posing a valid statement, with math to back it up, while the other side refusing to acknowledge these facts because "they did it, now you do it". Being a person who sat in the middle of the incredibly drastic economy change, I saw BOTH sides, and it IS more difficult to open chests.

Unlocking bps has become slower than it used to, which is why I say people want visible progress, at the very minimum, because getting a bp every 10 days vs getting a bp every few days is completely different gameplay.

This is not how games should progress, otherwise you further the gap between vet and new players, which shrinks your community. To those who still think its "easy". Create a new account, get back to me in a year+ with your progress.

Yet, people still trying to argue that the economy HASN'T changed ("It's still easy")? Seriously...? Gem prices skyrocketing isn't proof? Economies change in every game every year. This was by far the most obvious game I've played. When updates/patches stagnate, the economy usually "stabilizes", and when there are premium currencies involved... it's usually in favor of vets.

Ronin
"Great" Mastery Member
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:46 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Ronin » Fri May 19, 2017 8:04 pm

VeNoM0619 wrote:
Ronin wrote:P.S. Please you keep your passive agressive insults to yourself. I highly lament the general public's mathematical illiteracy and that's why I presented and explained the distribution data instead of just responding like bloop.

My apologies for the passive aggressive, but this topic has gone on for far too long, and has made no progress. It has been 8 full pages of the same discussion:
"Its hard to make keys to open chests, I hate them" -> "Its easy, quit crying lazy noobs"

One side posing a valid statement, with math to back it up, while the other side refusing to acknowledge these facts because "they did it, now you do it". Being a person who sat in the middle of the incredibly drastic economy change, I saw BOTH sides, and it IS more difficult to open chests.

Unlocking bps has become slower than it used to, which is why I say people want visible progress, at the very minimum, because getting a bp every 10 days vs getting a bp every few days is completely different gameplay.

This is not how games should progress, otherwise you further the gap between vet and new players, which shrinks your community. To those who still think its "easy". Create a new account, get back to me in a year+ with your progress.

Yet, people still trying to argue that the economy HASN'T changed ("It's still easy")? Seriously...? Gem prices skyrocketing isn't proof? Economies change in every game every year. This was by far the most obvious game I've played. When updates/patches stagnate, the economy usually "stabilizes", and when there are premium currencies involved... it's usually in favor of vets.


I lived through those changes too (and wish i'd been on the leather keys for gold in 2-3 days for much longer) and readily admit that the cost of acquiring gems (and thus bps) has increased drastically.

But at the end of the day, the randomness and lack of visible progress aren't the significant contributors in and of themselves to the problem that most of the "discouraged" players are feeling. They initially gripe about opening a chest and getting artifacts worth less than 1% of the key cost, but as they keep talking what's really discouraging to them is that it'll take a year at 1 key/day to get through the gold bp tier.* Reduction of randomness doesn't help the discouraged unless it also has a significant impact on the expected cost of acquiring a bp.

I like a bit of randomness in a game to prevent it from becoming overly formulaic, and based on the calculated distribution spreads, I can't find fault with the level of randomness in chest unlocking. My overall peeve is that people are blaming the randomness in the mechanics for an entirely different issue.

*assuming no fragments spent on bps.

User avatar
Shiroe
"Legendary" Mastery Member
Posts: 2296
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:05 am
Location: the Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Shiroe » Sat May 20, 2017 6:43 am

internetz wrote:Kim, you used to be able to request keys for gold at high levels, and they would fill within a month at the most, from the newbies flipping their keys/gems for gold. Now it's unlikely that you'll get keys for gold, becasue of the keyflip restrictions on newer players. this means that in order to open chests, you essentially are forced to either use/buy gems to open chests that way or snipe the occasional key that gets offered for gold. This is significantly "harder" than just requesting keys for max gold and waiting a month.

The problem with "used to" is that people set arbitrary points to compare against.
I could also say "most keys used to be available for both gems and gold on tradehouse offers, but tens of millions of gold for a golden key was just pretty expensive for people who didn't yet RNG a chest moneymaker".
And the key flip market was already heading to the multi-month point before the update hit; just a natural result of number of high level people growing faster than newbies, so having to share the key flip market with more people, so fewer keys per person. (If you let newbies flip gems into near infinite gold, their use of that gold obviously gets them quicker to the point where they themselves want to flip gold into gems...)

In my crappy paint skills, the below is how I guess free chest progress speed for late game players has been from late beta until now (last few pixels on the right should probably have been more horizontal; crappy paint skills...).
The big bump being key flipping and people picking the top of that hill as "used to" point.
Image
as of 2016-09-11: Player level: 44, City: Eolythes, Blueprints: 517, Mastered: 419, Crafted: 78.61K
(except for tier 1 and some tier 2 artifacts mostly running my shop/gearing self sufficient)

Molly
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Molly » Sat May 20, 2017 10:03 am

cc_Darkis wrote:Hey there Imasock,

Just sent off your feedback included with what I've seen on the recent changes to the chest. Thanks for this and I'm sure we can make it better overall. I don't see why not.


If others would like to chime in, please feel free folks!


I spend a lot of time to conversation with support. All what they can answer is something like "We sincerely regret your failures".

They even ignore the fact that I've wasted dozens of magic/dwarfish/primal chests without having any dwarfish/primal blueprints and having only one magic blueprint in the hands (before opening chests). Last one I got using first magic key from the 40 lvl special order.

Two months have passed. I added two magic blueprints. Last try: keys from special orders + 5 magics for gems. Nothing again.

Now there is more epic items from the chests. But chances for blueprints are LOWERED.
But! Some players still have 1-2 blueprints per 5 chests...

Its absurd. As stated in the first post of this topic.

Kim!
"Good" Mastery Member
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Chests are absolute cancer.

Postby Kim! » Sat May 20, 2017 10:19 am

Molly wrote:Now there is more epic items from the chests. But chances for blueprints are LOWERED.
But! Some players still have 1-2 blueprints per 5 chests...

Based on our current understanding of chests, the BP rate shouldn't have been affected. The change should have decreased (or removed) the chances of finding flawless and bumped up epic+. :)

I spend a lot of time to conversation with support. All what they can answer is something like "We sincerely regret your failures".

I mean, that sounds like about all they could do... wouldn't be fair to other players if you could tell support chests were being mean to you and get a refund/free bp out of it :P


Return to “General Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: akerson, Bing [Bot] and 4 guests

©2015 Cloudcade, Inc. All Rights Reserved.